Landlords will leave pub over race week tensions

“Sorry to read all this critical comment when the current people have done their very best to make the pub a pleasant place to go. It has been awful in the past and we were so hopeful that Pittville had, at last, got a place where you could sit down for a meal and have a coffee (as well as a beer). The cafe in the park is great but if it's wet or cold the pub is/was a great alternative.”

“Who cares what the property is physically capable of holding? If the limit for safety has been set by the fire service at 90 odd then they have to abide by that just like any other landlord. To suggest that being restricted to this amount is going to half their takings is utter rubbish. I have often been in there and there is no way I have ever seen 45 people in there let alone 90. It sounds to me like they did not do the maths before taking it over and are now looking for someone to blame for their failure.”

“Capacity follows a formula in a 104-page document obtainable via the GF&RS website. I had to do the assessment for our hall on risk first then on what the risk level classified the property as. For our low-risk premises the capacity is how many people can be evacuated through each fire exit in total over a maximum of 2 1/2 minutes. The rule for our risk level was to count fire exits then take one away - the fire might be by one exit so the guidance is to calculate based on one less exit than physically exists - then normal evacualtion is based on 40 people per minute passing through the doorway thus 100 per available fire exit.

Allowance hass to be made for premises catering to high percentages of very elderly or mobility-challenged people which limits the number per minute, also exit doores must be a particular width which has to be larger if there are high numbers of wheelchair users .

Without knowing what category the pub is placed into nor how many doors they have it just is not possible to question the figures given but it suggests they could only calculate based on two usable fire exits, elevated risk and other factors.

Fire officers are entitled to enter any premises during operating hours to check capacity and fire plans, they can issue advice to comply with by a date or a complete closure if risk is too high or not assessed, no "responsible person" present, missing fire notices or blocked/locked exits and lots of other things.”

“The capacity for any premises is a straight forward calculation which will give the occupancy capacity and the exit capacity the smaller being the capacity for any premises. There is some flexibility, however you would have to give justification for it. As a place of work The Sudeley Arms must have a fire risk assessment. This would show the safe capacity and the calculation used to determine it. As members of the public it would be nice to think that when we enter building our safety has been taken into account and not just how much money can be made.”

“Sorry, that should read "than they were allowed".”

“Licensing rules are there for a reason. Just because some other pubs may have got away with cramming more people inside that they were allowed, that doesn't make it right. It's like complaining about getting a speeding ticket because you know someone else who went faster and didn't get caught.”

“Bit of a difference between an allowed capacity of 90, and the "property being capable of holding around 140".

Tim is right - could well be that the physical size of the trading area/s within the pub are enough for 140 people, but the means of escape may well not be sufficient for such numbers, and only enough for the 90 as stated by the Licensing Officers. I used to do works to licensed premises which included occupancy limit calculations - one rule was you measured the clear width of all fire escapes, and then discounted the widest from the calculations, and what was left then determined the maximum number of people who could exit through the remaining exits. Quite often the size of the trading areas was irrelevant, it was the fire exits that determined maximum permitted occupancy levels. Had several instances where large bars / clubs had room for 500, but exits for only 300. In such matters the Licensing Officer takes guidance from the Fire Officer - put in additional fire exits, or you have to accept a lower occupancy limit.

Surely the maximum permitted occupants is stated on the premises licence? It's a set figure, and shouldn't be open to debate.”

“TimMessanger has a point, and how did these 'landlords' establish that 140 people could fit into the building, anyway?”

“The capacity of a venue is based not on how many people you can get in the room(s) but on the provision of fire exits, detection equipment etc. If the capacity is 90 it's that for a reason remember the club fires you see reported from around the world how would you like Cheltenham known around the world for a pub fire that kills 20 people in the crush, panic and smoke?”

“It's not unusual to see vile drunks loitering on the pavement, making noise and abusing passers-by at this pub, at all times of day.”