“My thoughts for years, but with the backing of the USA there is little that can be done!”

“Email to Martin Horwood MP - sent today @ 10:40

Dear Martin,

The state of Israel continues to justify its military action against Gaza on grounds of "self defence". Ipso facto, since Gaza remains OCCUPIED under international law (an interpretation shared by the British government), it is proclaiming the right of an occupier to crush the resistance of the occupied. Applied universally, this leads to conclusions any reasonable observer would reject (think Iraq's occupation of Kuwait or Nazi Germany's occupation of, say, France, and so on). How then to explain why this "right" is accepted by so many (including, it would seem, William Hague) in the case of Israel?

I would be grateful if you could post your views at This is Gloucestershire, where they will be available to all.

Best wishes,

UK government response re occupation of Gaza:
http://tinyurl.com/b5rerst

William Hague on recent events:
http://tinyurl.com/byhwb4y”

“Goes without saying that Martin won't be responding. Portraying Israel in a negative light is a career death scentence for a western politician.”

“The BBC's reprehensible coverage of what is happening in Gaza is despicable. It seems that the BBC has been infiltrated by those who sympathise with israel and its occupying forces and crimes against humanity. Why are Palestinian casualties being overlooked in favour of the israeli casualties, which currently are 13/1 and growing on the Palestinian side? Why has the BBC not reported the initial offences which caused the escalation of violence on the 5th and the 8th November, (namely, 20 year-old mentally unwell man shot for walking too close to the fense, 13 year old boy shot by tank whilst playing football in his garden?) As Noam Chomsky has already stated, it seems the BBC feels these crimes against humanity by israel are not newsworthy. Bias and dishonesty in an effort to oppress the Palestinians is nothing new in the BBC. As a British tax payer who supports human rights and justice I say; Shame on our government, shame on the BBC, shame on William Hague and SHAME ON ISRAEL.”

“You can't really say that Jeremy Bowen is pro-Israeli?

http://tinyurl.com/cgzm3gm”

“BBC impartiality on Israel/Palestine is a joke. In 2011 the Israelis killed 108 and injured over 450 Palestinians including large numbers of children. Similar levels of killing continued in 2012, with virtually no casualties on the Israeli side. None of these get reported and yet the latest attack is Hamas' fault.
Historically, Britain bears a huge responsibility for the current Palestinian plight through the Balfour declaration. The least it can do today is to support the imposition of sanctions on Israel to persuade it to abide by international law - by stopping the Occupation and removing the settlements.

For an alternative to the BBC view see:
http://tinyurl.com/b5lq7lz”

“How many sanctions have already been imposed on Israel, though, to absolutely no effect? If anything, they give the Israeli authorities an excuse to ignore the UN, when they might otherwise be obliged to appeal to that body and allow it to mediate over the territorial disputes. Israel's government holds all the cards here, and even if everyone on the Palestinian side was a budding Mohandas Gandhi, an Arab atrocity could always be arranged...”

“This says it all BBC bias?

http://tinyurl.com/bjc9svv

US President Barack Obama, speaking on Sunday, said Washington was "fully supportive of Israel's right to defend itself".

Speaking to Sky News, Mr Hague stressed that the Hamas movement, which governs Gaza, bore "principal responsibility" for the current conflict.

The Israeli military confirmed to the BBC that it knew foreign journalists were in at least one of the two media buildings it struck in Gaza, but said they were not the target.

On Saturday, Israeli Interior Minister Eli Yishai was quoted by Israel's Haaretz newspaper as saying that the goal of the operation was "to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages. Only then will Israel be calm for 40 years". - Source the BBC news website....”

“The press has turned against Israel because they defend themselves. But they forget the long history of arab attacks on the Israelis over the decades - and currently. The mistake the arabs made was trying to wipe Israel off the map, only to find that the Israeli military was much better than their own. So, they resorted to terrorism.
Should Israel keep the land they captured during these attacks? Well, down through history, the Victor kept the spoils. Why should Israel be any different?
The problem with the arabs is that they are too primitive in their approach. They just want to kill Israelis. That will never work. Until they move out of the 14th Century, they will continue to suffer retaliation when they attack Israel and Israelis. And that is they way it should be.
Someday they will learn.”

“Chompsky statement on Israel's war on Gaza IT IS NOT WAR, IT IS MURDER. This says it all.”

“Asodeska, you can't say things like "the problem with Arabs". Massively sweeping generalisation and also totally wrong in your point. I lived in Palestine and I never met a Palestinian that wanted to kill Israeli's. Ironically, I met many Israeli's who thought that Palestinians were sub human. I worked in Hebron, where settlers write "gas the Arabs" on school walls. Extreme fanatical Israeli's only know hate. Don't be stupid enough to believe the narrative which the BBC is bending. Hamas rockets into israel were a reaction to the murder or three Palestinians, one of them a 13 year old boy who played football in his garden, and the assassination of an elected leader. Do you really not think that the people of Gaza should do nothing when they are being starved, caged and murdered?”

“You think "Arabs" (or as I would preferable we reference to them as Palestinians) want to kill Israeli's? Please watch this video which my friend took in Tel Aviv tonight. Its shows Israeli's gathering in the street shouting "erase Gaza" "Gaza is a graveyard" "there are no innocent people in Gaza". These are your peace loving Israeli's. SHAME ON ISRAEL.

https://http://tinyurl.com/bhcsh7h”

“My friend who lives in Gaza City went to the hospital with a journalist and seen the bodies of children lined up. Understandably she is in a mental state. Israel has no conscience or remorse”

“Harper, Horwood, Hague and Cameron are complicit in the murder of Palestinian children in the worlds biggest, and yes I hate to use this word and analogy, but it is true Concentration camp. Israel with the support of the british Government seem to think it is acceptable to Bomb the palestinians into submission.”

“Boycott all Israeli goods and American as israel can only commit this carnage with the support of America. Please note and tell your friends that Mark Harper (forest of dean Mp) is a leading member of the Friends of Israel and refuses to condemn Israeli aggression.”

“GlosYap2,

Your general point – that "Portraying Israel in a negative light is a career death scentence for a western politician" – is, I would venture, broadly accurate. Though to be fair to Martin, he *has* responded previously on Israel/Palestine, and it *is* a Sunday. Let's be optimistic and give him until tomorrow evening... ;-)


Morrigan,

I'll be kind to Bowen (the best of a bad bunch, which isn't saying much) and describe that article as anodyne. I agree with RubySzarowicz – the broad sweep of BBC coverage has been reprehensible, exemplified by flagship presenter, Andrew Marr, who, in conversation this morning, stated, quite seriously, that "from a military perspective... what people have to remember is how small Israel is, and how open [it is] to rocket attacks". This, despite the fact that the Gaza strip is approximately 1/60th the area of Israel, enveloped by Israeli troops, warships and bombers, and being pounded from every direction on a daily basis. In short, classic, reflexive framing of the debate in favour of the principal aggressor and occupying power, Israel.


Ysedra,

What "sanctions" are you referring to that "have already been imposed on Israel"? I'm not aware of any.


Asodeska,

The "press has turned against Israel". Really??? Please give some examples. More generally, as already noted, your post betrays a (sadly not uncommon) level of ingrained racism towards Arabs... which, while offensive, does perhaps offer some insight into how Israel (= western/modern, right?), is able to crush the Palestinians with impunity.”

“[Bump] im pretty sure that this article deserves to be higher on the TiG list than the majority of Monday morning inconsequential local news stuff...”

“Joe Sucksmith, sorry, should have said 'resolutions', not 'sanctions'. They're the equivalent of being slapped with a damp waffle, but as I suggested, they provide a pretext to ignore the UN.

Just to play devil's advocate here for a moment, I dare say that from a hardline, or maybe even average Israeli's perspective, the Palestinians are just hanging on when they should all light out to Arabia or whatever, and Gaza is merely a foothold for militant Arabs dreaming of the demise of Israel. Why else would any sane human being think it was ever acceptable to bomb a civilian population from the air? In their minds, this is probably just a gentle nudge towards the Egyptian border...”

“Israel is only the size of Wales so a two-state solution, where the Palestinians get only the West Bank and Gaza while the Israelis keep all the best bits is never likely to appeal to most Palestinians. On the other hand how can Hamas be taken seriously as long as they hurl rockets indiscriminately into Israeli settlements and insist that all Jews be driven into the sea?

Call me a dreamer but the only sustainable solution to me seems to be for Israelis and Palestinians to lay down their arms, put their religion and differences aside, enjoy equal citizenship, and live together peacefully in the sunny land of PI.”

“why dont the terrorists stop attacking israel? or is that too easy?

if someone attacks me i fight back”

“Thank you for your email to Martin Horwood MP. I have spoken to Martin this morning about the terrible situation in Gaza and attach a statement from him below. If you would like to come and discuss this with him in person then please do let me know.

David Fidgeon

Assistant to Martin Horwood MP

01242 224889

-----------------------------

Statement from Martin Horwood MP

I will be meeting with FCO officials and if possible ministers this week in relation to the situation in Gaza. It is critical that we urge Hamas to cease rocket attacks on Israeli civilians but also that Israel pulls back from escalating the situation in a way that will doubtless cause more civilian casualties amongst the population in Gaza, further inflame opinion in other middle eastern countries and across the world and further damage any prospect of the peace process resuming. The Fatah administration in the West Bank and moderates within Israeli civil and political society need to be encouraged in their efforts to find diplomatic and political paths out of this tragic situation.”

“Just in case anyone should feel the need to contact Martin Horwood following his reassuring press release, emails can be sent to martin@martinhorwood.net”

“What a load of rubbish - the normal anti-Israeli rants. Israel exists because following the murders of men women and children during the Holocaust they were the ONE race the world owed a living and their own country.
Palestine was totally undeveloped in which the locals had achieved nothing, the Israelis irrigated it, made things grow, and are the last race on earth to want conflict having established their nation. But if you have to fend of rockets attacks on a daily basis from terrorists pushing their brand of Islam then you have the right to take out their leader.
Israel should attack and go in hard. Take the terrorists out (if the cowards do not hide behind the local population thus promoting casualties amongst their own people). Perhaps go the whole hog and take out the Iranian Nuclear facilities before the manic leader of Iran acquires the bomb ? The West should wholeheartedly support Israel, she is in the front line against Islamic terrorist expansion, the one civilised country in the whole region. As for Palestinian rights, forfeited whilst they hide terrorists among them. Palestinian children will be the tragic victims, but blame the those who harm Israel with terrorist attacks should innocents die.
Israel has the right to defend herself.
And may those of us who can see the bigger picture support her in that.”

“Israel has played too long on the conscience of the West with their 'we are the victims, remember the Holocaust' argument. The state of Israel's attitude to Palestine is no different to the Nazis.”

“Asodeska - concur with much of what you say - a lot of emotional strings here - and Geraint is a dreamer - real-politic - world history has been one of conquests, massacres, ethnic cleansing, you name it - was it any different in earlier centuries vast continents were being discovered and settled by those who ventured out?

what you see today in terms of nation states or relatively stable national boundaries is recent history - after 1st and 2nd world war. Borders have to be defended, and outsiders that do not contribute anything useful kept out - now don't start shouting Nazi or any such - The Jews of all people have a history of being persecuted over two millennia and eternally running around without a homeland - Hitler's holocaust was just a recent event - many such/lesser events in their history in the past. What makes you think they in turn do not harbour racist/religiously exclusive tendencies not much different from the Germans or Brits in the past?

In the real world, people protect what they have - even land titles in law favours those that are there today - if you dig deep enough - will find much blood in the line of acquisition and management.

Where does that lead us - yes present day Israelis were given their homeland following the upheavals of the 2nd War - out of sympathy perhaps for the holocaust, not that the League of Nations or the UN recognised their Biblical rights.

The world of the times was very ethno-centric, Arabs and the lesser people (read the defeated, un-sophisticated, and backward lot) could be ridden over - if you dig deep such inequalities and persecution/injustices are prevalent today as well in many parts of the world - and only come to the attention of the intelligentia/media when powerful interests are at stake.

I am not offering solutions or taking sides - pointing out that Jews and Arabs will never sort out their differences - as said by some, religious divisions and hatred endemic on both sides - if you go back to the Old Testament - was that not always so - it is one or the other - and the Arabs are not helping their cause one bit behaving like idiots breeding large families on international welfare, wailing, and throwing sticks against the Israeli Bombs expecting the world to wail with them. Regrettably the world will always be dominated by the intelligent, strong, able, organised, and the determined - and the Arabs regrettably are the losers on all counts. Unless they gather together, use some intellect in gaining the support of the larger powers - no hope that this will end any time.”

“BBC bias towards Israel? No way. Coverage on BBC News Channel has been excellent, reporting from "both sides". The best coverage from BBC reporters in Gaza is actually on Twitter. There's @bbclysedoucet, (Jeremy) @bowenBBC, @jondonnison, @Rushdibbc, @pdanahar, @WyreDavies, and news producer (Cara) @cswift2 all tweeting in almost 'real time'. And on a par with BBC, there is superb TV coverage by the English language channel of Al Jazerra.”

“It is September 1990. Saddam's Iraq has occupied Kuwait, and the Iraqi Air Force is busy crushing the last pockets of resistance...

Statement from MP

"I will be meeting with FCO officials and if possible ministers this week in relation to the situation in Kuwait. It is critical that we urge Kuwaiti resistance groups to cease rocket attacks on Iraqi civilians but also that Iraq pulls back from escalating the situation in a way that will doubtless cause more civilian casualties amongst the population in Kuwait, further inflame opinion in other middle eastern countries and across the world and further damage any prospect of restoring peace to the region. Moderates within Kuwaiti and Iraqi civil and political society need to be encouraged in their efforts to find diplomatic and political paths out of this tragic situation."”

“It is August 1940. Nazi Germany is occupying France, and the Luftwaffe is busy crushing pockets of resistance.

Gloucestershire's tenacious MP has released this statement...

"I will be meeting with FCO officials and if possible ministers this week in relation to the situation in France. It is critical that we urge French resistance groups to cease rocket attacks on German civilians but also that Germany pulls back from escalating the situation in a way that will doubtless cause more civilian casualties amongst the population in France, further inflame opinion in other European countries and across the world and further damage any prospect of restoring peace to the region. Moderates within French and German civil and political society need to be encouraged in their efforts to find diplomatic and political paths out of this tragic situation."”

“Doorstop,

Israel has occupied Palestinian territory since 1967. As such, it doesn't have rights, merely responsibilities, most obvious of which is to end the siege of Gaza (which is considered occupied under international law), withdraw completely from the West Bank, dismantle its apartheid wall, and pay massive reparations to the Palestinians (particularly those in Gaza) for the carnage and destruction it has visited upon them. And this is BEFORE we get to the issue of the refugees who were ethnically cleansed by zionist forces in 1947/8 and the years thereafter.”

“Absolutely - won the case at the International Court of Justice - send in the Bailiffs to Tel Aviv to auction off Israel, and collect the reparations.”

“Doorstop - I am sure the Israelis will feel confident you are standing by their side to defend/join in their aggression - but for some of us the question is when the Arabs will use their intellect and economic might to call the U.S' bluff and takeover Tel Aviv.

The Arabs are a disunited people, and have not changed in the last 100 years under the veneer of modern paste. Religion used to keep the population in the dark by zealots, and corrupt despots, not dissimilar to the plight of the population in medieval Europe.”

“The problem is the Arab's desire to annhilate Israel. If Israel allowed terrorists to fire rockets into their country without responding how long do you think they would survive? The answer is obvious, which ever group or gang that runs Gaza should ensure no more rockets are fired into Israel and the Israeli response will stop. Simple as that.”

“Email to Martin Horwood MP (martin@martinhorwood.net)

Dear Martin,

Your press release does not answer the question. To re-phrase:

Do you accept that the root cause of the recent violence is not rockets fired from Gaza, but rather Israel's continuing occupation of Palestinian territory (to include the illegal siege of Gaza)?

Many thanks,

Joe”

“Perhaps all the right-wingers would like to have a stab at explaining why Israel is constantly stealing land from the Palestinians in the West Bank?”

“socialista - because they can get away with it. The State of Israel was founded on land taken away from the original Arab settlers, and if you believe in their version of the Bible, Judea and Samaria also belongs to them. Yahveh has personally given all that to them.”

“Bunkum2012,

Why don`t you stop your divide and rule propaganda?

Jews and Arabs got along very well until the Zionist Jews from Europe started to arrive in Palestine, which was long before the Holocaust by the way.

It wasn`t the Palestinians who oppressed Jews, it was Europeans.

Nowadays we have groups such as Jews for Justice for Palestinians who reject Zionism (despite the tremendous pressure they are put under) and show solidarity with Palestinians.

Click and learn!

Jews for Justice for Palestinians

http://tinyurl.com/cv4g2l

Jews against Zionism

http://tinyurl.com/vvwp

Orthodox Jews United Against Zionism

http://tinyurl.com/4paxu”

“Timeline of Israeli escalation in Gaza and Israel's history of breaking ceasefires:

http://tinyurl.com/d8r7sh9

On the third anniversary of the last large-scale attack on Gaza (Operation Cast Lead), Israeli army Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Benny Gantz told Israel's Army Radio that Israel will need to attack Gaza again soon to restore its power of "deterrence," and that the assault must be "swift and painful," concluding, "We will act when the conditions are right.".

In other words Israel announces its war crimes in advance!!”

“Zionism in Gloucestershire:

Donations received by Cheltenham & Stroud Conservative constituency parties after Mark Coote and Neil Carmichael`s trip to Israel

http://tinyurl.com/cjzaqqu”

“No Imphal - it's not 'as simple as that'. The whole problem stems from the fact that Israel has deliberately stolen more and more land from the Palestinians since 1948 and controls the water, gas, electicity, medical supplies, building materials, and food. They have pushed the Palestinians into a tiny area (Gaza) just 25 miles long and 6 miles wide. In that tiny area live one and a half million people, making it one of the most densely populated countries in the world. What Israel has been doing is cruel and inhumane and amounts to ethnic cleansing while the world stands by and allows it to happen. These people have nothing and no hope of ever having a decent life and rebuilding their infrastucture. And if that's not enough, Israel is pushing the Arabs out of the West Bank and advertising to Jews all over the world to go to live in Israel.”

“socialista and kindanimal - live in the real world - solutions will have to be generated in Palestine/Israel and land does not belong to anyone - but the one who has it for the time being and able to defend it. You are barking up the wrong tree - go and protest in Israel - Gloucester folk have no clue to the issues, know little history and think the Middle-East is full of loonies.

How is it you are not taking up the cause of the Rohingyas of Burma or the massacres in Syria or the injustices past and present in Mali, Niger, Congo, Malagasi, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, SriLanka, Qatar, Afghanistan, Pakistan,”

“"Timeline of Israeli escalation in Gaza and Israel's history of breaking ceasefires:"

what is new? world population is bursting at the seams, resources depleting fast - a few more or less means little - all this will be pre-history in centuries if not decades.”

“Orthodox Jewish organisations such as NETUREI KARTA in socialsta's blog Ref will eventually change but with world is full of such situations, some much more violent and the outside world will do little unless threatened, or economic/political stakes at risk.

With the opening of the Mid-East states from despotic regimes, and weakening of Western economies/resolve, Israel needs to watch out and build bridges with their neighbours - as history can turn around fast and bite back.

If you notice, Nathanyu was threatening to bomb Iran before the US elections - now warned quietly no doubt to behave himself and unlikely the US will spend scarce resources opening another front in the Middle-East to protect Israel from her own stupidity. US is by nature isolationist unless her interests are threatened - and Israel does not have oil, and Obama does not owe Nethanyahu any favours, he will not need the Jewish vote any time soon.”

“Bunkum2012,

The reason so many people don`t know the crucial historical context of Palestine is because of the propaganda of the mainstream media. It is absurd for you to say that "solutions will have to be generated in Palestine/Israel".
The problem that is Zionism was created by Western imperialism because of the vast oil wealth in the Middle East. The Middle East was carved up by Britain & France after WW1 and the aim was to divide-and-rule the Arabs by putting puppet leaders in place. When America became the top dog it too came to see the importance of Israel to domination of the Middle East.

Check out US Senator Joe Biden`s (now US Vice President) candid words in an interview he gave to Shalom TV in 2007:

http://tinyurl.com/5jfuox

"people should understand by now that Israel is the single greatest strength America has in the Middle East.
Imagine our circumstance in the world were there no Israel. How many battleships would there be? How many troops
would be stationed?"

he concluded:

"I am a Zionist. You don't have to be a Jew to be a Zionist."

No other state gets as much aid from the US as Israel, it also gets huge political support from other western countries. Your attempt to compare the Palestine/Israel with other places where there is injustice is simplistic. Israel is an example of settler colonialism, which is inherently genocidal.”

“Socialista - well versed in world history - your problem is you take sides on an emotinal plane instead of analysing cause and effect in the human behaviour context. Western Imperialists - call it what you wish simply a manifestation of human nature - all social and territorial groups want to expand their territory, control resources, breed more of their own - what is new? The Arabs, Chinese, Mongols, Romans, Indians, Europeans, all through the millennia/centuries used the power they developed through technology, knowledge, exploiting others weaker than them, political alliances, and manipulations - and such power waxes and wanes. If you look at all this as manifestations of human behaviour you will learn to analyse the situations without taking sides.

The socialist states - USSR failed as it became complacent, ideology alone does not generate economics and they missed on the fundamental nature of the competitive man and rewards according to capability - not need.

The Chinese are much wiser, and encouraging competitive business and rewards internally, and political manipulation where they will secure scarce resources.

If you really want to help the Palestinians - need to get them to act smart, change, reform internally, gather strength via influencing their Arab brothers and then use them to gather power - simply throwing pathetic rockets at Israel only brings vengeance and as per their book - twenty-fold.

The Arabs and the Islamic people need to throw the handicap of their religion - much like reformation Europe three hundred years back liberated from the ignorant teachings of the Church.

Regards legality of Israel's occupation, etc, you can argue the rights, and wrongs till kingdom come - the fact on the ground is that Israel - Zionists, racists, or fascists, are on the ground, strong, better PR, better prepared, better brains, and better connected politically, protecting what they have taken over - unless the Palestinians match all that - no hope anything will change soon.”

“socialista - settler colonialism has been the main route how mankind expanded and extended territorially since time began. Nothing new. The nation states and political boundaries you see today is very recent history formed following the dismemberment of the Empires on all continents - and the borders mainly demarcated arbitrarily by the powers existing at the time - there is nothing static in nature, and most likely borders will shift, humans migrate, occupy, and fight it out.”

“Ah, those saintly Palestinians - http://tinyurl.com/at7gjue”

“Check out the amazing museum in Tel Aviv which celebrates Zionist terrorism:

The Stern Gang Museum was featured on a little-known BBC radio4 programme broadcast in 2006. Inside the museum a poster boasts of the achievements of Zionist terrorism which included:

"Preparing letter-bombs and sending them to personages in England. Preparing sabotage operations against British objects"

http://tinyurl.com/al6p86h”

“The Hamas Charter (or Covenant), issued in 1988, outlined the organization's position on many issues at the time, identifies Hamas as the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine and declares its members to be Muslims who "fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors." The charter states "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories, and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.

Among the charter's controversial statements is the following: "The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews and kill them; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: Oh Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!" The document also quotes Islamic religious texts to provide justification for fighting against and killing the Jews of Israel, presenting the Arab-Israeli conflict as an inherently irreconcilable struggle between Jews and Muslims, and Judaism and Islam, adding that the only way to engage in this struggle between "truth and falsehood" is through Islam and by means of jihad, until victory or martyrdom. The Charter adds that "renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion" of Islam.

Medieval fanatics who kill without any discrimination

http://tinyurl.com/at7gjue”

“socialista - Terrorists graduate to become national heroes if they are able to avoid the hangman until their side wins, didn't you know? How about George Washington, Nelson Mandela, Trotsky, Che Guevara? Yasser Arafat? Menachim Begin?”

“ablokehere - and, God is great! may his peace upon you.”

“ablokehere - agree - and we don't want a world dominated by religious nutters.

but both sides thick - Israel despite being the stronger presence is not achieving their objectives. Talking about rights and wrongs in the context - useless. Hatred breeds violence and no point discussing logically in these circumstances.

Good discussion on the BBC's moral maze yesterday on this topic.”

“In lieu of a further response to my email (which, going on past experience, is unlikely to arrive swiftly, if at all), some brief thoughts on Martin Horwood's initial reply...

http://tinyurl.com/bw72bcz”

“"Muslim, Zionist and proud - His father praised Hitler, but Kasim Hafeez writes about love for Israel, Jewish people"

http://tinyurl.com/d5n7kt5”

“Ahhhh, Dershowitz and "The Case for Israel". That takes me back...

http://tinyurl.com/ceym6mg”

“Folks
I think Israel has the right to exist, and that right has been fairly well agreed upon for good or bad depending upon your political/moral views, & historical interpenetration of events since the second world war. Might I mention that in recent years there has been a relative calm between the Palestinian State and Israel since the thwarted "entefada" of the back in 2000/2002.

I see that in all of the forum interchanges no-one has mentioned Iran, the back yard team player in supplying Hamas with the rockets to fire into Israel.
Might I also mention that Israel has a right to defend itself and its citizens against rocket attacks, just as you all would cry out for retaliation if rockets were raining down on Gloucestershire by some rogue faction say in France.

So why not look at the motives for these recent rocket attacks and focus in on Iran. The country that has supplied the rockets in the first place, vows elimination of Israel and has done so for years with Hezbollah in the Lebanon and a fervent supporter of the Alawitte Ba 'athist government in Syria.
I think it is a fairly widespread assumption or common knowledge that Iran will obtain a nuclear warhead by next year. Might the latest Palestinian rocket firing provocation be due to the insistence of Iran to test the Israeli Iron Dome defense system, just like the drone that was set up a few days earlier and shot down before the outbreak of the latest hostilities?

For me this is clearly a test of Israel's defense system put into place against a lot of Israeli opposition due to the cost. It relies heavily on US technology transfer through Rafael the arms defense supplier.

Might it not be highly feasible that Iran has been monitoring the percentage of rockets that got past the defense shield so that in the event of a war between Israel and Iran, the Iranians will have a probability ratio of strike success.
After all just one nuclear warhead getting through will have a devastating effect not just on Israel but its neighbours.
Might I also suggest that if Iran gets emboldened enough it could even attack Western Europe with rockets given enough time.
Then the situation and the sympathies might change a bit I daresay!
Do you think the United kingdom has the defense capabilities for such and attack?
Certainly makes me ponder with the recent defense cuts, remember peace comes at a price, its rarely free!”

“The name 'Palestine' is a corruption of Filistinia (Philistines) who,long ago,invaded and seized a much larger area than what is now the Gaza Strip.
At the time,about 3000 years ago,the 12 Tribes of Israel were already there.
So this goes back well into the Iron Age and still they fight and kill each other.
This is before Christianity or Islam came about,so claims of Jihad are a sham. It's all about invasion and land grabbing. Sound familiar?
What we have now is wrong. Every day new wrongs are done.
Two wrongs never made a right. What will a million wrongs do?
Well,we all know the answer to that. Innocents die! From all sides.
What will it take for a permanent and peaceful solution to this madness that is kept running by outsiders who only have avarice in mind?
Should there be another invasion,rather like the Romans did? Although even they left after reshaping the Med Countries and more.
Should the Gaza Strip be absorbed by Egypt and given provincial status which could leave the population with an autonomy of living standards but no right to declare war?
These are some of my views on the subject and I support none of the sides in this lunacy.”

“Lecorche - spoken wisely - May be we should re-assert our claim to our lost inheritance in France, how about the Netherlands or Saxony?

you have simply re-stated man's progress on earth - migrations, wars, revolutions, and so on. God is on the side of the winners.

However another take on Yahveh protecting his chosen people.

http://tinyurl.com/c9jp3g9

"Today
Let's just look at England and the United States. In the second half of the 13th century, the Jews in England suffered severe persecution and were even banned from England in 1290. It was not until 1657 that the Protestant leader of England, Oliver Cromwell, allowed the Jews to return. England immediately prospered as a nation. The pro-Jewish politics were set forth by the Dutch stadtholder William III, who then became king of England. England then grew to one of the most powerful kingdoms the world has even known. At the height of its power, in 1917, England gave the Jews the right to return to the Promised Land, which at that time was called Palestine. That right was later officially recognised by the League of Nations and the United Nations.

However, a few years later, England betrayed the Jews by choosing sides with the hostile Arabs. As a result, England went downhill fast and in 1956 the British prime minister signed "over to you" to the president of the United States. Since then the United States has become the most powerful country in the world. To a certain extent they have defended tiny Israel from the rage of the surrounding Arab countries. But the U.S. has received many warnings from above. A researcher discovered more than twenty cases in which a disaster in the United States coincided with American pressure on Israel to give land to the Arabs. "I will bless those that bless you and curse those that curse you" is a historical pattern that continues today.

The anti-Israel sentiment in the world does not predict good things! The rising anti-Semitism could just be the last drop when it comes to God's anger about all the injustice and sin in the world."

So be warned you mere mortals, not to rise against the nation of Israel!”

“lindenengine - Iran is a highly civilized, organised, thinking society, and self-sufficient - quite unlike the emotional Arabs. Surviving despite the economic blockade. The present government although seemingly hostile to the outside world, is pragmatic and internally resilient.

They have democracy of sort, absent in the Arab kingdoms. Unified culturally, highly educated. The anti-Western stance is understandable - if you read up the history of the Anglo-Iranian Oil Co and all the shenaginans that the CIA/Britain perpetrated there to gain advantage over their oil and gas reserves. Their perseverance during the long War with Iraq is of epic proportions , ignored by the Western media at the time. Remember the US hostage rescue mission that floundered in the desert.

Iran is territorially huge and whilst Israel might get away with a quick attack on say the Busheher nuclear plant, as it did on the Osirak reactor in Iraq in 1981 (which by the way also killed a few British scientists and engineers working there at the time), unlikely to destroy Iran's capability.

Given the experience from Afghanistan/Iraq, unlikely US or NATO would want to get bogged down in the desert long term again. What are they doing for the Syrian people?

Regarding Iran's support of Hamas in Gaza or Lebanon - that is more a manifestation of the historic Shia-Sunni divide - the persecution, low level attrition taking place in all the Sunni dominated countries of the region - just look at the continuing persecution of the Shias - killings and bombings in Iraq, Pakistan, Bahrain/Quatar, etc)

Israel will be restrained by the US - its historic protector and Uncle Sam is nearly bankrupt, and not in a generous mood now.”

“Bonkim2003
In fact I am fairly well read upon the matter of the Anglo-Iranian oil co and its predecessors the Anglo Turkish Oil company. I have followed its foundation and discovery of oil deposits by the Geologist/Adventurer D'Arcy and the dispatch of the Dorset regiment to Basra region in 1913 to secure that resource for the ATOC.

I also have lived in worked in the region for 12 years supporting British Industry when it did a good deal of exporting to the area.
I was running a plant in Iran building trucks and buses when the hostage crisis took place and in fact I remember standing outside the US Embassy watching the whole thing unfold as I lived in a nearby apartment.
The abortive rescue attempt under the Carter Presidency was due in part to the US forces removing vital sand filters from their helicopter engines, mechanical failure took place and adventure crashed! In any case its doubtful whether that would have succeeded had they flown into Tehran. For info in the 5 story Abbassabad apartment block where I lived, three families were hold up as virtual prisoners all working fort Brown and Root out of Houston Tx.
It was in fact the Canadians that provided every marooned Americans safe passage out of Iran by issuing them false passports. I remember them all and giving them a fond farewell & bon voyage in the middle of the night. The UK Embassy hunkered down and did nothing!

Yes from UK perspective Iran is big, but from a US observation its small, the UK is about the size of the state of Minnesota, Iran about the size of Alaska to put size comparisons. In fact one county in Colorado is the size of the whole of the UK ,that being Weld Cty.

Destroying Iran's underground reactors would take a monumental feat of military precision even using their Jericho bunker buster munitions. Any such action would make the Iranians respond with a missile response to all surrounding countries who are allied to the USA. This would suck the US into an inevitable conflict. Turkey, Russia, & China would tangled up in it without much chance of avoiding an abyss. Because to entirely snuff out Iranian retaliation would mean mass destruction. In the most optimistic views the world would go back to being like it was in the 19th century. In short that is why the US is calling upon restraint.

Indeed the choke point in the Gulf the Straits of Hormuz, Iran would strangle oil shipments out to the consumer countries. Oil would spike to about $500 barrel and any western economic recovery would be snuffed out! The US Fleet and super carriers like the Stenis are already there with a token Royal Navy presence to keep the oil flowing but it would take just one super tanker to be sunk in the Gulf to stop the lot!
Iran knows this and it holds all the trump cards, the West is powerless to stop Iran getting a nuclear warhead, economic sanctions are the only current non tactical weapon it has!
As for the US being bankrupt, that is a long held belief.

Its recent lucky card is energy!
It is on the fast track to being a world energy exporter. Fracking is the name of the game. Today the US citizen enjoys cheap natural gas at about $2,15 per 1000 cu ft when the UK pays about $16,50 for the same.
Oil is flowing out of Williston ND from the Bakken oil fields, and I won't mention the same in Texas, Pennsylvania, and due on stream in two years Colorado/Wyoming/Nebraska/Kansas' Niobrera oil fields.
Given another 5 years and the US will have eclipsed both Russia and Saudi Arabia with oil & gas exports. This will challenge Russia's N/Gas dominance to Europe when Yankee liquified product gets into the mix.
Remember about 40% of US deficit is energy imports, given 5 years it will, have a dramatic reversal due to emerging markets hungry for energy.
To put this in perspective Spindletop well in east Texas, founded in 1910 yielded 21 billion barrels, it latest the US until the 1970's. Just one of the Bakken wells has an estimate of 28 billion barrels.”

“"I see that in all of the forum interchanges no-one has mentioned Iran, the back yard team player in supplying Hamas with the rockets to fire into Israel... So why not look at the motives for these recent rocket attacks and focus in on Iran." (lindenengine)

Because Iran is a complete red herring. What should concern UK citizens is not that Iran may be supplying some crude military support to people resisting occupation, but that the UK GOVERNMENT is supplying both arms and political support to a state that has (illegally) OCCUPIED Palestinian territory since 1967, and that consistently uses western-supplied weapons to terrorise those it (illegally) occupies.

"Might I also mention that Israel has a right to defend itself and its citizens against rocket attacks..." (lindenengine)

Israel has as much right to "defend itself" against (occupied) Gaza as Saddam's Iraq had to "defend itself" against (occupied) Kuwait or Nazi Germany had to "defend itself" against (occupied) France.”

“Bonkim,

"emotional Arabs" = too much Bernard Lewis, not enough Edward Said = part of the problem, not the solution

http://tinyurl.com/d8evlsa”

“lindenengine - agree with all the additional analysis you have posted - but how does that connect with the Palestine/Israel equation with Uncle SAM shielding Israel? Yes it is to US' interests not to upset the fragile energy flows.

As you say any major blow up in the area and Iran's unleashing missiles all round or blockade of the Straits of Hormuz will wreak havoc with world economy, and destroy the world order. US' size, isolationism, relative self sufficiency are well known. So what is the point of comparing the US in size or control over resources with some of the countries you refer to?

The solution to the Israel/Palestinian conflict has to be found at the location, and between the parties. Joe Sucksmith makes valid legal points but idealism does not solve problems - even in Law, winning the argument makes no difference unless you can enforce the court's decision. In that the UN has proven sterile - simply because the major players/guarantors of its declarations have set their red-lines to protect Israel whatever she does - pandering to the tantrums of a spoilt child.

I have great regard for Iran cutting through the 'Mad-Mullah' image as a civilized, educated and thinking people, able to persevere for their cause -also what the West needs to consider is that Iran and other countries in the region can survive wholesale destruction, and rise again unlike the developed world if similarly nuked. Those who have less, worry less of losing what little they have.

My point on Iran was simply their connection with Hamas in the context of the Shia - Sunni conflict endemic in the region - including Lebanon, and Syria. Iran sees the US as its Enemy No 1 no doubt - based on its historic support for the Shah and the misdeeds of the CIA in close association with the Shah's secret police. The US has a history of supporting corrupt, and despotic regimes around the world, although proclaiming its mission to establish democracy, and justice in oppressed lands. It still continues to do so -and the rationale whether the support is for Israel, Saudi Arabia, or Qatar, Kuwait or the others in the region, no different today.

Regarding the British Embassy's inaction during the hostage crisis, I know of the British power project team in Tehran being bussed to Pakistan for return home.

Whilst Israel has a right to exist (you cannot undo the history of human conquests, Wars, and migrations, or you will end up repatriating all recent European, and Asian settlers and descendants of previous waves in North America back to Europe, Asia, or wherever they came from) it also has a duty to abide by internationally recognised codes of behaviour, and UN resolutions - not to annex more territory for setting up protected housing estates for Jewish settlers and displacing local inhabitants. What is going on in the occupied lands is not unlike the wild land-grab that took place in the US wild-West.”

“Bonkim2003
Comparing sizes as you ask was in response to your statement about Iran being quote "huge" when in reality its a small country by US standards and other similar land mass countries like Brazil, Russian, China etc.
You mentioned it (USA) was broke when in fact it has huge resources to fall back on in servicing its debt, unlike the UK and has the potential now to alter the balance of energy flow in the world. As such will eventually in turn alter US foreign policy within the Middle East.

The UN's decisions really has no relevance when the USA disagrees with it, mostly borne out by the decisions in Congress. History has shown by such things as failure on ratification by the House of Representatives. Perhaps galling to many but that is the state of it quite frankly.
The major players historically have been the UK and then the USA.

To understand this we have to realize since the discovery of oil in the ME, the Western world has become a net energy importer and user to fuel and prosper industrial growth, military power and become major players shaping world order. Hence we have even today the leader nations and the vassal nations.
When the UK was the big boy on the block it had a navy to protect its interests around the globe. It had until the end of the 1st World War world domination. Much of this was based upon Britain's decision (Winston Churchill) pre- war to convert the RN to oil fired warships and project power. A far reaching effect upon Britain's main rival Germany. But it set in motion a thing called reserve currencies. The Pound note was the order of the day and the world wanted it to conduct business globally; so the treasury was busy printing money and the world bought the sterling currency with gold and other monetary currencies to be Quids in! The UK prospered on "freeish" money
The UK lived well on the fortunes of this monopoly in world trade and it lasted until around 1968/1970. Unfortunately wars, commonwealth demands, and diminished global reach got the better of the UK and by 1967 the UK was the recipient of a substantial loan from the USA which was interest free. To some extent I was a beneficiary of that being a student with free tuition in Gloucestershire a the time.
By the end of the Arab oil embargo in the 1970's the USA was the big boy on the block, and President Nixon negotiated with Saudi Arabia a unique deal! All oil purchases no matter where in the world by the newly formed OPEC would be in US $s and for that concession the United States would provide SA with militarily protection against all aggressors so keeping the oil flow assured.
Today the US prints money, the "Greenback" as a PetroDollar, the world must buy it, we all must buy US $ to run the fuel in our cars etc. The US treasury is in fact getting free money from the world purchase of the US Dollars to run each economy in the world. The USA is living on free cash thanks to its Dollar. Hence would you not pre- suppose that ANY activity to disturb this arrangement would be vigorously defended and opposed with the military might of the most powerful nation the world has ever seen. This in the most part explains the current posture in the ME and it really mirrors to a certain extent Britain's posture when it was top dog!
Well as for land grabs we Brits have been the perfect world scoundrels historically speaking, carpet baggers & villains in fact!
A bunch of Brits bought Manhattan island for a bunch of beads, a certain Englishman and his cronies got King Mattabele hooked on drugs to usurp his country now called Zimbabawe for diamonds. In fact we blatantly invaded India and bled it dry!
As a nation we must not throw stones in this world greenhouse, we have been more devious by far than the Yanks and that's stating something! Although I will say it was all done with a certain aplomb & proficiency the American's could never equal, at least so far anyway!
Regards”

“lindenengine - quite so - not much difference between our analysis - Iran's size in terms of other countries in the region and even in military terms.

All tha apart - as a world reserve currency, the rest of the world is supporting the US deficit - but there is such a thing as lifecycles - and all through history civilizations/Empires/military powers, all have waxed, and waned - the results of the technological and organisational superiority are getting a little thin as world resources - essential to maintain the constantly expanding production, and consumption base is declining, but populations across the globe expanding, also expectations. The post-war era is seen to be one of huge progress (?) and plenty but there lies the seeds of the down turn.

Regardless of being the only superpower - not sure if US citizens will have the stomach to support another global conflageration - the losses will be huge - quite different from the mindsets of the 1940s when people were glad to get a job - any job and Roosevelts $5 a day workers who built the major infrastructure projects of the 1930s. Alltold the disparities within the US and the rise of the non-anglo population has changed the US different from that of the 1940s, and 50s US. Furthermore, because of the factors you mentioned - size, huge land mass, and resources, and global industrial, commercial dominance, the US is also introverted, most people content/ living in their neighbourhoods/limited exposure to the outside world, cocooned and dependent on their hot dogs and fried chicken - the main reason it lost in Vietnam - Decay and defeat stems more from internal factors rather than external threats - same reason Empires crumble. Because of size, and diversity and the rising Latino/Catholic segments, US populations are a hotch potch united mainly by their economic goals and will lose cohesion when the system fails to deliver - low resilience unlike the Asian and European countries with long historic and cultural bonds.”

“The Fit could hit the Shan today,Thu 29th. Nov.2012.
There's a UN vote on granting Palestine a form of statehood.
If it is granted,by a simple majority vote,then it would mean that Palestine would be able to invoke the services of the International Criminal Court and also gain the use of other UN agencies previously denied.
The ICC is a tribunal that is used to prosecute War Crimes.Genocides and other offences against humankind.
GB will be abstaining from the vote.”

“Lecorche - You have to identify and then catch the alleged criminals before hauling them in front of the court. May be we need to invite Clint Eastwood to ride in the desert with his six gun.”

“I don't think there'll be any problem with the content of your first sentence,B.
Didn't we already do something like your second sentence,causing the problem?”

“Response from Martin Horwood... received yesterday.


Dear Joe,

I do understand what you are saying but the immediate cause of this specific conflict is undoubtedly the rockets fired from Gaza at Israeli civilians. Are the root causes Israel's continuing failure to halt illegal settlements, their blockade of Gaza or their failure to reward those Palestinians attempting to pursue diplomacy not violence? None of these are helping so possibly the answer is yes - but I don't think any of these things justify firing rockets at civilians, any more than I think firing rockets at civilians justifies a disproportionately violent response from Israel which has cost many more Palestinian lives. Seeking to definitively ascribe blame to one side or the other is a hopeless game. The key thing it seems to me is to encourage those on both sides who are pursuing the path of diplomacy and negotiation, for instance with a UK government 'yes' vote to Palestinian recognition in the UN General Assembly if we can persuade the government to cast it this week.

Best regards

Martin Horwood MP”

“My response to Martin Horwood... sent this morning.


Dear Martin,

Many thanks for your email.

You say:

"Are the root causes Israel's continuing failure to halt illegal settlements, their blockade of Gaza or their failure to reward those Palestinians attempting to pursue diplomacy not violence? None of these are helping so possibly the answer is yes…"

Which sounds reasonable... but, again, isn't quite what I asked, is it? This sentence, in the context of your other published responses on this matter (I've just conducted a brief google search!), seems to indicate a reluctance on your part to characterise the situation in Gaza (and indeed the West Bank) as one of "occupation".

This in mind, I'd like to request answers to a few simple questions please (yes/no answers will suffice):

(1) Do you agree with your own government's assessment that "although there is no permanent physical Israeli presence in Gaza, given the significant control that Israel has over Gaza's borders, airspace and territorial waters, the UK judges that Israel retains obligations under the fourth Geneva Convention as an occupying power"?

(2) Assuming you have answered "yes" to (1), do you agree that application of a framework in which Israel is the "occupying power" and the West Bank and Gaza are "occupied Palestinian territories" is in accord with the generally accepted facts of the matter?

(3) Assuming you have answered "yes" to (2), do you agree that, morally speaking, the manner in which the "occupied" resist occupation is secondary to the "occupying power's" obligation to end its occupation?

(4) Do you agree that selling weapons to the "occupying power" directly facilitates its military activities against those it occupies, and is thus completely at odds with (3)?

I do hope you'll respond to these questions, which shouldn't take more than a few moments.

Please note that, as previously, I'll be posting our continuing exchange at This is Gloucestershire, on Facebook, and also at my blog.

Best wishes.”

“Morality? How do you define that? Power always wins over reason assuming reason is something all will agree.

Palestinians need to first put their chaotic house in order, unite, take their Arab friends on-board and learn to suppress their base emotions in the face of formidable odds.

Not sure Mr Horwood has any answers to the problem apart from his words which seem sensible enough. But if words and reason could solve the Israel/Palestine situation, the 1967 War would not have taken place.

The world is in an economic kilt, and no one would wish anything to make it worse, least of all troublesome situations that don't bring any credits. The Palestinians have lost their friends, are seen to be divided, corrupt, and no one will bankroll the. Darwin's fittest always seem to win and survive.

Build up your strength, learn how to make friends, mend fences, and influence others; stop throwing pebbles at someone that can, and will trample on you at will.”

“forgot to add - collect all the UN resolutions and make a bonfire - stop quoting international law - the UN has no teeth apart from those that its key members loan them when it suits their interests.”

“Yes, it's a bit irritating this "international law" business, isn't it. If only we'd all roll with the "realism" of might makes right... ;-)”

“Response from Martin Horwood...


Yes, Israel is legally the occupying power, has actively occupied in Gaza and still is actively occupying large parts of the West Bank. I tend not to use the phrase 'occupied Palestinian territories' in debates and elsewhere precisely because I think the simpler term 'Palestine' recognises more straightforwardly what should be that country's equivalent status to 'Israel' and is in line with international agencies' judgement that the Palestinian Authority has now achieved a great deal of the international benchmarks for statehood. In the specific case of Gaza, Israel is not in active occupation at the moment having passed on administrative authority in 1994 in line with the Oslo Accords and withdrawn altogether in 2005, albeit within all the economic and military constraints that we both know all too well. Gaza and Palestine will not of course gain true independence until there is a peace settlement.

But just to be absolutely clear in answer to your crucial third question, I don't think that attempting to deliberately murder Israeli civilians are morally justified in any way. Such attacks are also profoundly undermining of any attempt at a peace process and of the Abbas government's attempts to pursue a peaceful diplomatic approach.

As far as I know we don't sell weapons to Israel although the policy is to consider each export licence on its individual merits and I have to say I would be happier with a clearer policy that ruled out components that could be used in disproportionate Israeli military responses of the kind we have seen in Gaza recently. Some UK export licences have been granted for potentially defence-related items such as aeronautics software and imaging cameras but a licence for combat aircraft components to be exported to Israel was refused only this summer.

Best regards

Martin Horwood MP”

“Bonkim2003
I have just got the chance to read your post.
Yes I believe the US is beginning to wane in the power projection as the power base moves gradually moves East and South.
In recent times the US has gone to war on a credit card, a debit mostly secured from China. The revenue is being used to build a Chinese military base to equal that of the US and at some point there will be a tipping point.
As you can already see international UN resolutions have no weight if China is not on board.

The recent elections in the US clearly show that the population is not supporting the hawkish stance projected by the Republican ticket and Romney as a President, he/they were resoundingly defeated. This included the blind support for Israel as we have seen historically since 1948.

As to the US during the Roosevelt period (as you point out) remember that he put the US back to work with the Federal Work Program which at one point employed 2 million people. What is not often mentioned is that he got taxation measures through Congress to tax the rich at about 90% on today's income of about $500,000. This was an idea put forward by Edgar Hoover fearful of Communist/worker uprisings (sound familiar with Obama) and to keep the masses happy with a social security plan which exists today.
He was the last President to enjoy (if you want to call it that) no term limits, after he died in office his successor Harry Truman introduced the two term system as it is today.
The United States was the only real winner of WW2, its industrial/military machine once brought to bear meant that there was going to be a clear winner by the middle of 1944.

Since then the Industrial/ military complex as flourished and Eisenhower warned of such a rise. This can be easily demonstrated by the Iraqi invasion by US troops under a pretext of weapons of mass destruction and BLiar's somewhat secret revelation of the dubious Yellow Cake supplies. This invasion was clearly in response to Saddam Hussain's insistence on using the Euro to receive payments in the oil for food program. In short it was a blatant act to undermine the dominance of the petrodollar. I don't think we will see things like this from the US again.
The industrial base in the US is clearly in decline except for high tech equipment and energy as I have previously mentioned.
Today we see the use of sanctions which on Iran has had some effect but again China now buys crude from Iran (which has limited to no refining capacity). This is not subject to the embargo nor are the transactions shown in the Anglo American swift banking system. So in effect it is embargo busting by skirting the letter of the resolution
Again China only acts on its own there is little to no influence from the western powers which have been in a dominant position perhaps for too long calling the shots.
It is only a matter of time before Iran has its nuclear weapon.
Is that a bad thing you might ask? Well it will change the power balance; it will put Israel in a very vulnerable position and it will cause a nuclear expansion as other Arab nations in the Gulf scramble to arm themselves with high tech weaponry to balance the power projection out of Tehran.

On the world monetary scene we can already see nations doing business with each other within the BRICS and Russia China signing pacts to trade in the Renimbi. China has a relentless policy of hoarding gold, buying mines worldwide and storing bullion by their military complexes. At some stage they will have more gold than US reserves and then the supremacy game will start perhaps by a return to a Chinese gold standard.
Whatever way the cards fall in the next generation we will see a complete change in world order. Europe will change the most in spite of you siting historic and cultural bonds.
Notably unchecked Muslim immigration into Western Europe is already having an effect to form a pan Eurasia. Dwindling birth rates amongst indigenous Euro populations will turn them into a minority.”

“The posts keep coming and disappearing.

Yes lindenengine - agree with most of what you say - but historic comparisons always don't work out. The big spurt in advancing technologies and means of production was post-war - and it needed a huge consumer-base to expand around the world - result - today most of the world is getting affluent, but equally populations, and expectations also rising fast.

Given that resources are finite and the present economic, and political structures have evolved over a time when resources appeared inexhaustible, something has to give. I have no answer to what and how long the present situation will last, but looking back, we are on a fast-tract to oblivion.

As you say, the cleverer, richer have cornered supplies of fast depleting resources, but even that how long? WW2 and many other conflicts have arisen because of need for land, water, and mineral/energy resources for meeting basic needs - and will that be any different?

The underlying Israel/Palestine conflict is land and water, only maginfied by historic hatreds, and big brother US holding Israel's hand. As you suggest even that could change as the US becomes pre-occupied by its own needs, and balance between the threats from the east, south, and west. US population as well over 300million and growng, old certainties disappearing, and even fracting gas will not last for ever.”

“A response to Martin Horwood...


Hi Martin,

Some brief rejoinders that, as usual, will be made available to others via Facebook and This is Glos.

"Yes, Israel is legally the occupying power, has actively occupied in Gaza and still is actively occupying large parts of the West Bank. I tend not to use the phrase 'occupied Palestinian territories' in debates and elsewhere precisely because I think the simpler term 'Palestine' recognises more straightforwardly what should be that country's equivalent status to 'Israel' and is in line with international agencies' judgement that the Palestinian Authority has now achieved a great deal of the international benchmarks for statehood. In the specific case of Gaza, Israel is not in active occupation at the moment having passed on administrative authority in 1994 in line with the Oslo Accords and withdrawn altogether in 2005, albeit within all the economic and military constraints that we both know all too well. Gaza and Palestine will not of course gain true independence until there is a peace settlement." (MH)

This paragraph would seem to be an answer, of sorts, to questions (1) and (2). However, from your use of "active occupation" to differentiate between Gaza and the West Bank, it is unclear as to whether or not you actually concur with the British Government (and the United Nations) that Israel remains an "occupying power" IN RESPECT OF GAZA. Could you confirm, please? A simple yes or no will suffice.

Regards your use of "Palestine" rather than "occupied Palestinian territories", the problem with this is that it potentially obscures the historical reality, namely that Palestine is NOT equivalent to Israel; that Israel OCCUPIES Palestine, and – incredibly – has done so since 1967. This context is crucial both to understanding the dynamics of events in the region AND to securing a JUST "peace settlement" (as opposed to merely a "peace settlement").

"But just to be absolutely clear in answer to your crucial third question, I don't think that attempting to deliberately murder Israeli civilians are morally justified in any way..." (MH)

This is an obvious strawman. The "crucial third question" neither states nor implies that firing rockets at civilians is "morally justified". Rather, it seeks acknowledgement of something that ought to be uncontroversial: that the crimes of the occupier warrant greater attention than the crimes of the occupied. Do you agree with this?

"As far as I know we don't sell weapons to Israel although the policy is to consider each export licence on its individual merits and I have to say I would be happier with a clearer policy that ruled out components that could be used in disproportionate Israeli military responses of the kind we have seen in Gaza recently. Some UK export licences have been granted for potentially defence-related items such as aeronautics software and imaging cameras but a licence for combat aircraft components to be exported to Israel was refused only this summer." (MH)

Well, my question wasn't really specific to the UK (the US, our "special relation", is of course the principal culprit), but of course, it is nonsense to suggest that the UK doesn't sell weapons to Israel. Sure, some export licences have been refused in recent years, but weapons and, more relevantly, components for use in military equipment (e.g. Head-up displays in attack aircraft) have consistently been sold to Israel since the Oslo Accords. Thus, the issue isn't so much that the UK government is giving insufficient support to those resisting occupation, but rather that the UK government (of which you are part!) is ACTIVELY FACILITATING the crimes of the occupier. Early Day Motion 788 seems highly relevant at this juncture – is there any reason you haven't signed?

Best,
Joe”

“Early day motion 788

UK-ISRAEL MILITARY RELATIONS
Session: 2012-13
Date tabled: 28.11.2012
Primary sponsor: Clark, Katy
Sponsors:Corbyn, Jeremy
George, Andrew
Godsiff, Roger
Mudie, George
Williams, Hywel

That this House is dismayed at the recent hostilities in Palestine and Israel; notes that the then Foreign Secretary confirmed that Israeli equipment used in the 2008-09 conflict in Gaza almost certainly contained UK-supplied components (21 April 2009, Official Report, column 8WS); is concerned that this is likely to be the case with Israeli equipment used in November 2012; believes the Government should conduct a thorough assessment of the possible use of UK-supplied equipment by the Israeli Defence Force during the recent conflict in Gaza; and calls on the Government to fundamentally re-examine all military relations between the UK and Israel, including imports from Israeli defence contractors and co-operation through the EU Security Research Programme, until such time that the long-term safety of Palestinian civilians is secured.

http://tinyurl.com/brglc33”

“The discussion about this issue is taking place at the Friendship Café this evening, at 7pm. Apart from the article in the Citizen a few weeks back, there hasn't been any promotion of it, not even on the front door, so it'll be interesting to see what the turn out is.”